When Your Enthusiasm Overpower Someone’s Consent….

by Reid on April 21, 2021

When Your Enthusiasm Overpower Someone’s Consent…Passionate Couple Having Sex

Find out more now with Reid Mihalko from http://www.ReidAboutSex.com and Cathy Vartuli from http://www.TheIntimacyDojo.com.

Reid: Alright there we go. Ah!

Cathy: Are we live?

Reid: I think we’re live.

Cathy: Does anyone see anything?

Reid: This is real life. I don’t know.

Cathy: Hopefully not.

Reid: Hello everyone it’s Reid Mihalko from https://reidaboutsex.com/ and I’m here with guest star Cathy Vartuli of http://theintimacydojo.com/ and we are in the Vartuli hot tub in the secret Vartuli hideaway, the sconce somewhere in San Jose because Cathy works for company that we cannot mention

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: publicly

Cathy: Publicly.

Reid: But if you guess fruit, you might guess. And you live down here and this is your hot tub

Cathy: Yes

Reid: and there’s roses in, in bloom in the background

Cathy: They’re going crazy

Reid: and…and we thought we would do a Facebook live from the hot tub

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: This is the San Jose hot tub versus the Portland hot tub and we’re talking about

Cathy: Yeah you’re doing a lot of lives for hot tubs

Reid: I’m…you know what, I’m get

Cathy: You’re gonna down.

Reid: I’m soaking I’m soaking I’m soaking

Cathy: You should get one of these tripods for your hot tub.

Reid: Yeah, we have the MeFOTO tripod happening here and I have some tripod envy. Cathy has a very stylish tripod. I’ll put the link, the link was in yesterday’s video but I’ll put it again in this one and today we’re talking about…you brought up the conversation for an idea

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: about when, when your enthusiasm steamrolls over somebody else’s

Cathy: Consent

Reid: consent

Cathy: like where’s that boundary between self-expression where you want, you’re excited about something you want to share like “Hey, let’s go do the thing” and listening to people who might not have strong no’s or may not be able to say no at all.

Reid: mm-hmm

Cathy: So I think it can be a challenge because I like being self-expressed, I like being enthusiastic and I’ve also been on the other side where someone’s been really enthusiastic and I didn’t feel like there was room for my no so I think it’s a tough decision I mean there’s sometimes when it’s really clear where you just like “I” you know like someone says no you’re like “No, we’re going to do the thing” like that’s not consensual. There’s…they’re they aren’t on either side there’s edges that are like clearly like “No, you shouldn’t go here; you probably shouldn’t go here” but when you’re in that gray area like someone might be just have…someone even with the really good no might be having a rotten day and they may not just they may not have a good no and they was like “Ah, just go along with it.” But that can build up resentment later on they might come back and go “Why did you do that?” You’re like “I didn’t feel like you heard me at all” and that doesn’t feel good like I don’t like violating consent even if it’s not stated.

Reid: So when, when we were talking before we got on this and…and you chime in wherever you are.

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: We’re in a hot tub. Where are you today? Where do….what….where are you? If you’re driving do not

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: Do not leave a comment. The…I think the thing ultimately ends up of being, being about upset and what people regret

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: because sometimes we say yes to something and then it turns out to be like we, we

Cathy: A retroactive no

Reid: No, no, no. It’s…it’s more of when, when somebody makes a decision or they tolerate something

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: and then it ends up being like the coolest thing ever

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: we don’t remember backwards like of the “Oh, I made an exception”

Cathy: [Inaudible 00:03:05]

Reid: or “I said yes when I was really a no but that actually was ended up being a really great night.”

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: Or a really great thing.

Cathy: Well, like the, the zombie movie you took me to because nothing else is playing I’m like “I hate zombie movies” and it was the best movie ever.

Reid: Best zombie movie ever

Cathy: Pride and Prejudice and Zombies

Reid: Yes, Pride and Prejudice and Zombies

Cathy: I thought I was going to hate it.

Reid: Go see that movie. It was actually really well done.

Cathy: It was amazing.

Reid: It was great

Cathy: But I was like I was like “Really?”

Reid: So my enthusiasm, now we’re now this is all about zombies…my enthusiasm steamrolled your yes

Cathy: Well

Reid: or what was what was going on there?

Cathy: I wanted to go to a movie. There wasn’t really a lot of good choices so I didn’t have another option that was better but I don’t generally like zombie movies so I was like “ahhh”

Reid: And then what would have happened if it had been a horrible movie and you regretted it?

Cathy: only if given you how

Reid: but how would that fit into what you’re talking about?

Cathy: I think I mean I was owning my…I didn’t say anything, I didn’t say no so I now was in a place where I could definitely own it like “Okay, this last hour and a half sucked and that was my…” like I didn’t say no and I don’t think I never told you that I didn’t particularly like zombie movies to see so I wasn’t like you’re like overriding something I’d said before but it’s just an example of a time that turned out really fun, we had a great time but there if, if

Reid: So what about an example where things didn’t turn out well

Cathy: We’ll stick with movies, a friend of mine said I had to go see Silence of the Lambs, that friend knew I hated horror movies, knew I hated them with the passion he told me it was a thriller, I rode with him so I couldn’t I couldn’t leave like the location once I gotten far enough into it I had to watch the end and I didn’t sleep for three nights.

Reid: Okay, why did you have to watch the end?

Cathy: Well, for me if I don’t watch the end I’m still left in suspense

Reid: Okay

Cathy: so like if I get a certain way into it through a scary movie I have to watch the end because otherwise I’m just still like terrified all the time.

Reid: Okay

Cathy: So but they left that one where he’s like still out there so I was like “Crap”

Reid: Okay, so would it have been better for you to leave in the middle and then deal with, with the incompletion or like what would’ve changed at?

Cathy: I would’ve this was, this was a small town and it was before lyft or taxis or you know like I was kind of like if I leave there’s no place to go so I ended up staying but also ‘coz I want to watch it but I was very….I lost a lot of trust for that person after that like when they suggested something I was like “I’m going to check with other people before I make any decisions.”

Reid: Okay so

Cathy: so it did hurt our relationship

Reid: So when your enthusiasm steamrolls over somebody like what do you do?

Cathy: I try to make amends and that this has happened like I get really excited about something like “Let’s go do this” and if someone doesn’t say anything or they’ll ask questions and I don’t know if they’re asking questions because they want to know more, because they’re doubtful I you know like “Let’s go do it. It’ll be great.” And sometimes they’ve come back later and said they didn’t feel like I heard them. I try really hard to pay attention to who I’m talking to

Reid: How do you measure or register an enthusiastic yes?

Cathy: Well, I love enthusiastic yeses.

Reid: Okay

Cathy: I’d…I’d it’s ideal when we get those but I don’t think we always get those.

Reid: So when you don’t get them, what do you do? Please tell our viewing audience.

Cathy: It depends on what the activity if it’s sex then I’m like “Okay thanks, like thanks very much. Good bye.”

Reid: Okay

Cathy: You know, I’m not going to continue with that but if it’s like, like at lunch sometimes nobody can make a decision, nobody’s an enthusiastic yes for all the restaurants so I like let’s go here most people seem to be like that like all like make a decision rather than stand there for another 20 minutes trying to decide lunch [Inaudible 00:06:46]

Reid: And that’s and in this example of what we’re talking about that steamrolling over somebody’s consent

Cathy: Well, I’m…I’m there’s probably there may be some people that weren’t as enthusiastic or I don’t know like

Reid: To give them room to…to not show up?

Cathy: Yeah, they don’t have to come.

Reid: So what’s the problem?

Cathy: They may feel like the lunch was hijacked or I like you know if they were looking forward to lunch with the group and they may have I mean I don’t know about you but I often well like if we’re talking about going to Thai and then we find out the Thai restaurants closed and we’re all like in the mood for Thai and then no one can make a decision if you can just go on and I’ll sometimes like just like “Hey, I’m going to you know let’s go here” but I also have authority there so I sometimes wonder if I’m like pushing things there.

Reid: All because you’re the boss?

Cathy: Yeah. Well I’m

Reid: Okay

Cathy: I’m a manager there so

Reid: Alright

Cathy: so I have more clout some somewhat, maybe?

Reid: Okay

Cathy: Sometimes

Reid: Well I mean okay so as a nerd, as a design nerd that seems like it’s a “Oh hey, I’m realizing maybe not everybody’s on the same page, should we all just order in and eat lunch in the lab?”

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: And then that way everyone gets their thing like that that seems more like a discovery of a of a win-win like creating a win-win situation for everybody versus how when you don’t get an enthusiastic yes what do you do like so when, when you don’t get enthusiastic yes, you could try to create a situation where everyone can take care of themselves

Cathy: You definitely can but and also there’s bandwidth like how much processing do you do, is there an enthusiastic yes that exist for everyone? I you know I don’t think I love that concept and for sex and, and things that you have bandwidth to, to do things around sometimes that’s great but for the impractical everyday terms we have a meeting at one, it’s now noon we don’t have time to order food in, we were going to go to the Thai restaurant we all agreed on that. The Thai restaurants closed the closest restaurant we can… there’s a big close restaurant though you’ve mostly liked in the past I’m going to just declare that’s where I’m going and anyone who wants to come with me.

Reid: Okay and why is that problematic?

Cathy: Because some people who are shy or may not feel like they get to stand up to the crowd or do something different, they don’t want to be left out. So there’s I think you’re really independent so you may not recognize peer pressure in that sense as much

Reid: Okay

Cathy: but like if you want to be part of the crowd you want to hang out with your friends, it’s harder to say no you feel swept up

Reid: I mean I understand but at the same time you have an in your situation you have an hour to eat, either come eat with us or go get your own food or don’t eat and again like now I get to play the hard-ass and I get to be bad cop in this situation like “I’m pragmatic cop, you have one hour to eat. The Thai restaurant is the one place that can serve us in an hour for us to get back to the meeting.” And then if somebody feels bulldoze by that

Cathy: So if

Reid: how do you how do you design around that?

Cathy: For people that being part of the group is very important, I think

Reid: They get to be part of the group.

Cathy: well they can either be part of the group or they or they can go eat what they want if they don’t want to eat Thai.

Reid: They can either be part of the group and eat in a timely fashion that allows them to come back in time for the meeting or opt out and everyone can rail on me on this like I’m bad cop now, um Cathy’s good cop I’m like but they’re enthusiastic yes like in that situation again, if they’re shy or introverted or you know or…or just having a bad day they might not have the bandwidth to come up with a third suggestion

Cathy: Yup

Reid: but from a facilitation perspective it’s a “Hey, here’s…here’s what…what’s here’s what’s going on, here’s my suggestion we have five minutes to entertain other suggestions I know that some of you might be shy and that maybe this time this wasn’t the best choice but I am open for…for suggestions on how to do this better but right now we now have 55 minutes left to eat.”

Cathy: Yes

Reid: And so from a facilitation perspective, I think you can use your authority with and…and your privilege like responsibly

Cathy: Yes

Reid: and then let people know it doesn’t always have to be exactly this way I’m, I’m open for feedback and suggestions but given that I’m the person in authority I’ll take the fall on this. This is what we’re this is what I’m doing in the next 55 minutes. Who wants to come with me and then whoever doesn’t want to come with me here…here are the other solutions.

Cathy: Okay but if playing devil’s advocate to that for people that want to be part of the group but may not want that food, they feel like they have to choose between being part of the group or like they were already part of the group

Reid: For that well so how about this, there’s no one in the group eats and we all stay together like, like if you’re if you’re acknowledging that there’s a situation happening like that’s happening

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: and there is a deadline in a window that will close and off of opportunity then how are you going to handle it powerfully and then are you building a situation where people actually can chime in and, and, and create the yes and for the next time?

Cathy: No, I think I like the idea of saying “Hey, this you know I’d like suggestions and feedback on that” and I do try to tailor how firm I am or how enthusiastic I am to the person so like my younger sister is a sweetheart but she’s really shy so

Reid: Is she watching right now?

Cathy: I don’t think so if

Reid: Does she know you have a hot tub?

Cathy: She doesn’t have Facebook

Reid: Oh, there you go.

Cathy: but

Reid: there you go

Cathy: She’s a sweetheart but if I came in like “This is so cool let’s do the thing” and she’d probably say yes to be polite whether she wanted to or not. So with her I’d be like “Hey sweetheart, I had this idea I want to see if you’re interested” and I’d be calmer

Reid: Yeah, okay

Cathy: where if…versus like with you I know you have a good no I might be much more enthusiastic but maybe I don’t know you’re having a bad day and are not feeling like you can be as clear

Reid: and ideally I would be able to speak up or take responsibility if I said yes to something I…I

Cathy: ideally

Reid: was a no to, right? Ideally and that can be messy when it comes out in the wash later but that’s also being human it’s kind of what you’re shooting for

Cathy: Yeah well I think it’s maybe good enough that’s what we’re talking about earlier this weekend it’s like are you good enough at this like you don’t have to be perfect to have good relationships with people hopefully like we’re not going to be perfect but we want to try to be like, like good enough at this so that people feel safe and we feel like we’re heard.

Reid: Yeah, I mean again this is this also a conversation about perfection versus progress and then some people base their, their trust on what’s perfect.

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: So as long as you don’t ever miss communicate or get it get your estimation of your own abilities wrong

Cathy: Which is really hard to do

Reid: then I can trust you because you will never let me down, you’ll never have to change our agreements or your mind or you’ll never make the wrong call about yourself and if you hang out with human beings you realize that that isn’t always the case so like people just going to fuck up. I grew up in a family where the fuck upry was so large, anyone even trying to do it differently is a win so I appreciate that but then there was also a point about the enthusiastic yes because you were saying in sex and in something else obviously it’s enthusiastic yes or nothing but from a cuddle party perspective if I want to hug you and I rushed you and I’ve got my arms open and I’m looming over you like that creates a form of pressure.

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: So enthusiasm can be a form of pressure and you can be enthusiastic

Cathy: and keep your hands on your thighs

Reid: Yeah like there’s a way for you to be like “Hey this is something I would really like and I’m actually okay or open with or can take responsibility for you being a no with this.” So where does the steamroller come in?

Cathy: Well, I think that I like to hang out with people in general who have their no and I feel like I can trusted and I know with you a couple times I’m like “Hey, I’ve had a really rough day. Can you be gentle with me today?” Like I tried to tell you if I’m I may not have a good no or good resources and you’ve told me like “Hey, I’m really tired today or whatever.” So I think when we can communicate, we may not have as clear a communication or resources that can help. Ideally everything is in enthusiastic yes but there’s times like at work where we’re like “I need you to do this. I know you don’t want to, nobody wants to do this but it needs to get done” like how do you balance that?

Reid: You pay them a lot of money and give them stock options

Cathy: Yes

Reid: and then they shut up

Cathy: hopefully

Reid: Bad cop remember, I’m playing bad cop

Cathy: and I don’t know I just there’s times I get frustrated too like people are like “I’m trying to look for consent, I’m trying to look for consent like what we’re going to do together as a group?” And I’m just like “Let’s just do this because if we hear if we listen to…I’m not consenting to listen to any more debate”

Reid: because you won’t get to fed back to the food, the lunch…we’re using lunch

Cathy: Or food or whatever yeah.

Reid: Okay, what do you think about enthusiastic consent and things like this?

Cathy: or you should join us in the hot tub

Reid: Yes. I have I have I strong beliefs about hot tub.

Cathy: You’re strong yes to hot tub?

Reid: Yeah, something’s bothering me about this conversation. I’m trying to

Cathy: Oh

Reid:  put my finger on it

Cathy: Okay

Reid: because yes life stuff, yes people don’t always communicate well, yes we’re all looking to be self-expressed and I have a lot of energy and a lot of enthusiasm and I’ve just learned to that what’s worthwhile is trying to not pressure people when I can.

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: Hesitation is a no it is not a “Hey let me ask you this again in a different way.” It’s automatically a no because what I’m looking for is the enthusiastic yes that is like the good fit “Oh this is a really great idea yes.”

Cathy: What if you didn’t explain it well enough and they’re hesitating because they’re not sure what you meant and they have questions?

Reid: Then I can answer questions

Cathy: Right

Reid: but that also seems that they’re going to ask questions.

Cathy: Right

Reid: so again

Cathy: but hesitation doesn’t, a hesitation often means no but

Reid: hesitation yeah but hesitation automatically means no unless they can convince me that they’re a yes. I…I now have a concern that you that I feel very strongly about this by the way, your hesitation means you’re not an enthusiastic yes

Cathy: Or maybe I just didn’t understand what you asked

Reid: Yeah which means you can get clarity and then convince me that you are now an enthusiastic yes. However, if anything but an enthusiastic yes is automatically a no and then for me as a cisgender guy I am not trying to convince you to do it, I’m not trying to seduce you into doing it, I’m not trying to convince you ‘coz all these other things are problematic ‘coz I’m overriding your no and so I don’t even ask a second time like I don’t

Cathy: I don’t

Reid: bring it up again

Cathy: no I don’t have a problem with like that’s definitely the black and white area, I have no problem with that.

Reid: Why can’t all situations be black and white?

Cathy: because humans are complex

Reid: Maybe that’s the problem, maybe you’re buying into some sort of thing that because humans are complex there can be some wishy-washiness around enthusiastic yeses.

Cathy: Well so even someone who has a really good no that I feel very comfortable and trusting their no might be having

Reid: Got it

Cathy: a bad day

Reid: Great but is they’re yes enthusiastic?

Cathy: Hopefully

Reid: No but if it’s not then you know it’s a no, you don’t have to rely on their no you just calibrate for in their enthusiastic yes.

Cathy: Not everybody has enthusiastic yeses or no’s.

Reid: Then it’s a no until they get to enthusiastic yes, this is simplistic, it’s reductive. I will be the bad cop to say this is right, yes human beings are complex but this is this I think okay I’m being melodramatic but I’m in a hot tub so there and I’m playing bad cop but when everybody is an enthusiastic yes

Cathy: It’s great.

Reid: stick with that

Cathy: Okay but you also

Reid: humans are complex

Cathy: you’re in a

Reid: and when everybody’s an enthusiastic yes, things are great.

Cathy: and I’m not saying ever to override someone’s no a hesitation, I’m saying that not everybody lives in the sex geek bubble and has really clear communication about stuff.

Reid: Great so if they’re not clear it must not be an enthusiastic yes.

Cathy: I think

Reid: Oh yeah, if I had a mic I drop it into the hot tub

Cathy: and then we’d be like to get hit

Reid: No ‘coz it wouldn’t be plugged in.

Cathy: Okay. I’m not a yes to that.

Reid: But this I mean I think this is what was bugging me, this is the foundational piece of the, of the argument, right? Or the, the dilemma is human beings are complex they’re not great communicators so that automatically makes it feel like “Wow it’s probably not an enthusiastic yes so it should be a no.”

Cathy: well like if…if you asked me to learn how to do one shopping cart better

Reid: Okay one shopping cart is a shopping cart system

Cathy: It’s pain in the butt, it’s pain in the butt.

Reid: for online marketing

Cathy: I’m an I’m like not enthusiastic about that but I’m enthusiastic in the outcome like if we could do something more powerful with it then I’m enthusiastic of…to the outcome but I’m not going to be like “Oh Gunny, let’s sit down and do one shopping cart.”

Reid: Then you shouldn’t do it…that is a very different situation that is a big grut like “Ah, God I hate”

Cathy: It’s a pain in the butt and I hate this

Reid: “I hate the shopping cart.”

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: and I’m a yes to the thing

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: Now again, human beings are complex Cathy

Cathy: Yes

Reid: I don’t know if you’ve heard this but that isn’t about human beings complex being complex that’s about the situation is an idea

Cathy: being complex

Reid: in an ideal

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: and yet I’m still a yes to it

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: So we could argue and nerd out on if this is…you’re tolerating something but then again from a pragmatics perspective, what is actually so? Like “I need to get to San Francisco. All I have…I’m in San Jose all I have is a bicycle. Yes, I have to leave the hot tub, I’m not enthusiastic yes leaving the hot tub. The only way to get to San Francisco is with a bicycle. I may not be excited about the bicycle but I need to get to San Francisco.” So sometimes you have to use one shopping cart. I don’t know why I’m so adamant about this but this feels good. I feel, I feel like I’m working for something

Cathy: The people are agreeing with you.

Reid: that’s good. But again like saying that human people human beings are complex like that’s like saying the alphabet is an abstract symbols that we put together to make words. An apple doesn’t isn’t actually an apple, well yes that is true it is abstract but how do we need to communicate?

Cathy: I…my point isn’t that we should ever override someone’s no and it’s not that we should ever override someone’s hesitation it’s that not everybody has the vocabulary and some of us interact with family, friends or whatever that aren’t necessarily a savvy and if you want to interact with them sometimes you have to listen or be gentle or change your enthusiasm or your self-expression to make sure they

Reid: Sure, if you wanted to change your enthusiasm

Cathy: Thanks Brenda

Reid: if you wanted to change your enthusiasm so you’re not pressuring them, great.

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: But whether or not they’re a yes or a no or whether or not they’re an enthusiastic yes and everything else should be a no that to me seems really clear cut.

Cathy: Where do you draw the line, at what level of enthusiasm do you cut it off?

Reid: Am I being pressuring or not?

Cathy: Right but you want an enthusiastic yes so if I say yes calmly is that enthusiastic?

Reid: Well if I feel like it’s a big grudging then either I’m going to be like “Okay so just you know that’s a big grudging yes. Can you take full responsibility for not enjoying what you’re about to say yes to?” Or I would just cut my losses and be like “You know what, that didn’t sound enthusiastic enough I’m a no.”

Cathy: Oh

Reid: “This isn’t a good idea.”

Cathy: So

Reid: “We shouldn’t do this, we shouldn’t go for Thai food.”

Cathy: So you’re interpreting my, my, my response with emotions that you don’t actually know, you didn’t ask me what those feeling, you don’t know if it’s big grudging or if I’ve had

Reid: you didn’t meet my requirements, my requirements for an enthusiastic yes.

Cathy: So if someone jumps up and down three times and waves their arms, that’s a yes?

Reid: If they if, if

Cathy: And that’s they say yes.

Reid: and they, they say yes might “Okay great like that was a clear you are into this yes.”

Cathy: Yeah and, and Tracy we’re not saying once someone says no it’s absolutely no, that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about the gray area of how enthusiastic should they be, are they being overwhelmed

Reid: basically when somebody’s not a real yes, how it bites you in the ass and do you really want to put up with that?

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: Cathy says people are complex.

Cathy: Yeah and see Erika, Erika is saying “What about people who don’t emote enthusiasm? I…I hear you Cathy.” That’s true, some people are really flat like how do you calibrate and why are you assuming that my unenthusiastic, my flat yes might not be because I just had a rotten day and I’d love to go to Thai food and I’m just

Reid: Well then convince me, convince me that that is like again, we’ve all had family members or friends say yes to something and then while we were doing it, it was obvious they did not

Cathy: Right

Reid: want to be there. Use that as your baseline example what would have fixed that and then come from there

Cathy: Right

Reid: when in doubt it’s a no, it’s a no and then and then put the onus on them to convince you why they are actually consenting?

Cathy: If they say no it’s absolutely no.

Reid: No, but if it’s, if it’s

Cathy: We’re not talking about that

Reid: unenthusiastic if it doesn’t meet your needs for enthusiasm, my phone will die at some point so this will cut off. If

Cathy: And we’ll get to continue debating

Reid: if, if we’re never leaving this hot tub. Hit some emoticons if you never want us to leave the hot tub. But again, like if they’re not in…if they don’t meet my needs for an enthusiastic yes then I then I should take that as a no because that is the best positioning for me. Now yes we could argue “Oh my god it’s emotional labor, they have to convince me that they’re a yes.” Go back to your family members who said yes to something and then didn’t want to be there.

Cathy: Okay but let me say so you have two people you ask to do something – one is very self-expressed and very like “Yay! Yay! Yay! I want to do it.” The other person’s shyer, equally enthusiastic but they just said “Yeah, that’d be great.”

Reid: Okay but how do you know

Cathy: Are you going to just divide the

Reid: Do you know them well? Do you know that that for them is their enthusiastic yes?

Cathy: But if you don’t know

Reid: Can you

Cathy: Are you going to exclude them?

Reid: Do you…can you use any communication tools and resources that you have at your disposal to find out if their yeses actually what, what qualifies for them as an enthusiastic yes?

Cathy: I would just say that the way you’re just your blood you know you have a line

Reid: I would rather be wrong on this than clueless on this.

Cathy: That, I mean it’s not a bad place to be but I also

Reid: It’s a crap place to be, it’s a crap place to be

Cathy: I also think it might be

Reid: [Inaudible 00:25:55]

Cathy: it might discriminate unintentionally against people that are quieter. You are you know if you

Reid: I look forward to your, your free training series that will help us learn how to calibrate, how to hear a shy person’s enthusiastic yes. Wouldn’t you love to get that product from Cathy as an as an identified an introvert and shy person, wouldn’t that be a great use useful resource, wouldn’t Cathy be better at creating that resource than, than extroverted jerk-off over here?

Cathy: I’m just saying I’m, ’m inviting you to consider that the way you have the line drawn

Reid: When in doubt, when in doubt stick to the line because, because being wrong about it

Cathy: Thanks [Inaudible 00:26:36] Hey Erika.

Reid: being wrong about that is better and overall than, than trying to convince yourself that you were right because the shy person if we’re following with a shy situation, if they’re enthusiastic if that isn’t an enthusiastic yes and you’ve over calibrated and you bring them along or if they just want to be included in the group but they’re really a no I think that the repercussions are, are worse.

Cathy: Okay but we’ve also turned this around the original question is what if I’m enthusiastic when I ask someone? Can I be self-expressed without overriding people?

Reid: Yeah, don’t pressure people

Cathy: Right

Reid: these are cuddle party rules, right?

Cathy: Where is that line that where’s the line between pressuring people and being self-expressed?

Reid: When in doubt like overcompensate like over

Cathy: When in

Reid: over, pull it back

Cathy: when in doubt, don’t be self-expressed

Reid: No, not…not don’t be self-express, control your enthusiasm or be aware of how it impacts people. You’re never going to get it perfect but that you’re even wrestling with this idea means you’re more you’re further ahead than other people.

Cathy: Yeah but I would just add, I also think that sometimes controlling how you express yourself is looming in your self-expression.

Reid: Yeah says the white cisgendered guy

Cathy: Alright, okay

Reid: who’s extroverted

Cathy: Alright

Reid: Yes it’s called mindfulness and understanding your impact

Cathy: Yeah

Reid: and your privilege.

Cathy: I’m just I wanted to have a discussion because I think it’s not I haven’t seen a lot of discussion about it.

Reid: Being self when I say be self-expressed, I don’t mean that that your self-expression is entitlement to be yourself and not understand that you, you being you impacts other people.

Cathy: Yeah and Luna says “I think natural golden retriever types do need to work on this with shyer peeps. Well done.” Thanks Luna. Yeah, I think we all I mean we can all grow and learn and we all learn to calibrate and notice smaller and more subtle things that we didn’t notice when we were three or five but this is not an easy clear to find, I don’t think there’s like a very clear line. Once we get it’s the gray area

Reid: ‘Coz people are complex Cathy.

Cathy: and the situations are complex.

Reid: Oh my god, oh my god. Have we accomplished nothing in this hot tub? Nothing today? Alright, leave your comments.

Cathy: We love to know what you think

Reid: Where can people find you?

Cathy: http://theintimacydojo.com/

Reid: Go to https://reidaboutsex.com/  for me. If you are sex educator go to https://reidaboutsex.com/sexgeekpro that’ll get you on the sex educator list and then https://reidaboutsex.com/vulcan VULCAN will get you on the every…everybody else list and then leave us your comments. Cathy Vartuli, thank you for this, this enthusiastic, charged, empowered conversation about enthusiastic yes and

Cathy: Yeah and I appreciate the feedback from people. This is something I’d like to get better at.

Reid: There you go back to the hot tub. Bye, everyone.

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