INCEL (Involuntarily Celebrate): What Can You Do?
Cathy: Someone wrote in about our video about Incel and involuntarily celibate people and he very articulately and thoughtfully explain that we didn’t know what we’re talking about and that he went into a longer post with a blog attached and we want to talk about a little bit and answer some of his criticisms and the points he made. This is Reid Mihalko from http://www.ReidAboutSex.com/
Reid: Cathy Vartuli from http://www.TheIntimacyDojo.com/
Cathy: And neither Reid and I works specifically with people that are Incel. I’ve worked with some people that would consider themselves that and for 14 years I considered myself Incel.
Reid: And just for some people who haven’t seen the other video it’s involuntarily celibacy true for loneliness there’s a lot of different terms coined by people who identifies this. So, one as educators whenever you’re teaching or talking about stuff that’s not your own personal experience and we just want to say thank you for people who wrote in who identifies Incel like let people share there lived experience when it’s not your lived experience and for me as a poster child for white extroverted male privilege and for me who is somebody who is promiscuous and the celibacy that I’ve ever gone through was chosen celibacy and exploring certain things about my sexuality. It’s not my experience. I’m fine to answer to some research and answers questions and I just want to encourage people who are going to see this video or any of our videos if were talking about stuff that are actually your experience. We would love to hear from you whether you leave a comment or send a message. The things that I want to talk about Cathy and I talked about talking about around responding to this is where I think there are tools and understandings about humans and how we communicate and how we can empower ourselves that lead for greater connection and there are tools that maybe you didn’t learn or I certainly didn’t learn growing up from my family and the adults around me. So, sharing this tools and then your own experiences as a person of size there are maybe ways that we empower ourselves for me as an insecure person who had an alcoholic mom like skill sets sharing that helps us all become empowered human being that’s part of my mission and why we thought we’re “qualified” to even respond to these questions and criticisms in a video. I feel like a babble.
Cathy: It was good intention babble.
Reid: So I did babble? Please continue Doctor Vartuli.
Cathy: So for 14 years because I weighed 323 pounds I felt like I wanted to be sexual, I wanted to be in a relationship and I wasn’t having anyone that was approaching me for it. I’m very shy so I wasn’t approaching anyone else and no one was magically appearing and I wasn’t engaging with people and I have a hell lot of resentment and a lot of frustration because the way society has arranged and the beliefs that are there that I couldn’t get connection that way. And what this gentlemen wrote on his blog and we’ll put the link below is a lot of what he recommends is really brilliant and you know you don’t have to apologize for being males what he said and I don’t have to apologize for being bigger. We don’t have to apologize for who we are or we have perfectly normal sexual urges, brilliantly written. We don’t need another person to cook or clean or do other domestic tasks and some other points he said and I think that absolutely true. But one of the things he said is you need to see women as they actually are not the way portrayed by the media. He said they’re lying, skimmy, manipulated bitches that who always bang survey caps wearing alpha douche bag over you every time. So I like to talk about that because I really did have a lot of resentment there, too. Our society, our media has a lot of emphasis on attractive status things and also there also really lots of people out there that are amazing people that don’t care about those things. And I really did learn if I can get over my shyness and fear of about being rejected because I’m bigger I was able to build connections and I want that to people who wants to build connections and I also know that when I approach someone angrily or defensively that it was much harder for me to build relationships if I came up you’re gonna reject asshole? In my mind even if I’m not saying it if I just approach you as you’re an asshole and you’re gonna hurt me and you’re a fuck what? It’s really hard to build a connection or relationship in that way.
Reid: Even if they truly are fuck what?
Cathy: Well if they’re not, I mean the energy is present there and I am so sorry that society and experience can often create a really strong beliefs that everyone is up to get you, everyone is judging you I’ve experienced that myself I had long times were I would see my friends that I went out will get hit their butts and just sit there like a loompa or a log and I’ve learned that if I’m not sitting there sulking or feeling bad about myself if I engage with people sometimes it takes more effort than said. I wish it didn’t take more efforts but once people get to see me they don’t always see the weight as negative and there some really cool people out there that don’t look at your weight or other issues like that as an issue they just see people. So when we set barriers out then everyone is either of a gender or human is something like they’re bad they’re gonna judge me or hurt me and I really do get that that come from a lot of really harsh experiences that belief can be there and that can really be strongly anchored . I’m not saying you did anything wrong I’m just inviting you to maybe open up and find out if people are really like that because not everybody is like that. And I’ve really had a lot of amazing experiences with people since I like going out of anger and fear that I was having. So I know that you’re in your comment you were talking about women pre selecting. I really felt like men are preselecting and not judging you’re not seeing me too. I think we tend to do that we tend to blame and put categories together when we feel very alone and very scared and it we kinda blanket that that’s very human thing to do rather than saying wow, that person was really complete asshole to me and I don’t want to engage with that person. I wonder what this other person is gonna be like.
Reid: And I can understand having gone through my own versions of things that how much it hurts when you just continually running to a bunch of people that don’t get it. Having been a football player in college but also a comic book artist other artist saw me as a damn jack and not wouldn’t engage with me on art level until they saw enough of my art to start to change their opinion. Again this is not the same situation but how frustrating it is to have to wait for everybody else to get the fuckin clue and not me back then not having the tools to be able to find people faster who got me immediately like the refreshingness of when somebody gets you and just sees you for who you are and also were all being influenced by culture in our own ways so like calibrating that just is gonna happen.
Cathy: And he actually said we can see our society for what it is that’s a really good advice. There’s a lot of garbage out there and beliefs.
Reid: And you know the idea that culture is encouraging people to be shallow and that environment especially to those of us who have been ‘othered’ right like I didn’t always look like this and I wasn’t always comfortable how dorky I am. So me being you know the roley Poly super clumsy super anxious fifth grader with a mom who is descending into alcoholism nobody wanted to hang out with me and that shifted but the insecurities of how I feel like who I’m seeing when I look at the mirror is not what culture is looking at me to be, right? I think starting to understand that so many people are going through being fucked over culture and all the ways that we also are conflicted because you may have desires or erotic alignment is towards activities with people that are just not into you whatever that is, right? And I’m not trying to minimize this but I’m just saying if there’s so many plates spinning that to develop the ability, to see all the context, still hold and be gentle and kind to yourself so that you are not leading with the hate and the anger but it’s okay to be angry and to have that anger starts to calcify into hate. Understanding that that is not that easy and then is there a place where I try to get myself to is, where is that place of inspiration and aspiration for me? Who am I trying to be as a comic book nerd you know great power comes from a great responsibility for me like from a great privilege I had the responsibility on how I use that wisely, how do I help uplift other people and can in a good day can I lead with that? And that feels what I can adequately contribute to this conversation having it not be my lived experience. Always.
Cathy: And I think again what this gentlemen recommended in his blog a lot of it does apply. Talks about focus on other things than persuading women, understanding our culture as it is. The biggest thing I found that makes a difference for me is not trying to get my identity bolstered by who I connect with. When I felt very, very insecure about myself I mostly wanted to connect with people that met my ideal of what was okay and I have a near focus on what I felt like if that person would sleep with me or date me that would I finally feel valued and I was trying to get my needs met that way but there’s something a little off in the energy around that which was not comfortable for people. People when we valued with themselves not because they’re gonna build some status up and I think when we’ve been rejected a lot or felt unloved it’s really easy to want that. There this energy of like please fill me up make me feel better about myself. So what he’s recommending about doing other things in your life that’s really important but you can also if you want to look and see building connections with people because…
Reid: Well that’s not what in his blog post is surround yourself with people who are awesome who where’s the community component? Surround yourself with people who invite you and support you to become a better human being, learn better self-care practices so that on bad days you have more resources. And the tools to get yourself out of the bad day which is a good human being tools to begin with, right? Because we’re all gonna have some small days no matter how awesome or culturally approved you are. The advice of being able to see culture for what it is and opt out of it understanding that for most of us we are social creatures and our dying for community I just happened to find, I like being a part of island of misfit toys like the sex geeks and the insecure, shy, brainy, nerdy people who wants put things in their butts, those are my people. So when I found them they got the nerd in me and then in the odd way me surrounded by bunch of nerd and insecure nerdy people I wasn’t feel alone. And there are some bitter nerdy people putting things in their butts that I have to step away from because to find those people that would relay uplifting me and what my visions or shared vision on what the world can become which a lot of you is stepping outside of that box of what culture all the bullshit culture put us on.
Cathy: And the last point I wanna talk about is he is talking about how the women who have all the power, they are the choosers. That’s not my experience at all as a women. I think that the time I wasn’t connecting I really did blame that’s the time I was looking to date men I was like those assholes why they’re not reaching out, why are they’re not connecting with me? I put the power over there because I felt disempowered and really now I tried to view it as people get to choose are we gonna dance together or not? It’s not once person has a power and the other doesn’t and there’s a dance. And if my tanks are really full, I’m getting my needs met in lots of different ways it was really easy to be in that space and when I really feel depleted and down then it’s really easy to get back in that space of it’s their fault because I do feel powerless at times.
Reid: And what tool, and thank you for listening it’s a longer video than we usually do. What tools or techniques do you have to aikido those bad days to yourself?
Cathy: [Inaudible 00:15:36] massage or I start getting my tanks filled and start asking myself, what do I need? I asked a friend to have dinner and listen to the event, do you have idea of emotionally freedom technique which an acupuncture tapping technique to help clear energies. I might go to a cuddle party which I ran which you and Marcia Baczynski co invented. So there’s different ways I can get my needs met it don’t have to be romantic or sexual that will allow me into the better place if I approach someone or if they approach me?
Reid: Cool long video, deep thoughts, ideas, thoughts, suggestions, and resources, what you got?
Cathy: And again thank you very much for people who wrote in about this I understand it’s a very touchy subject and hopefully we can handle that in caring and warm intentions.